[0:00:07] BT: When so much of the college search is about what you'll do during university, it can be easy to push off what comes after until, well, after.

[0:00:14] BHA: Knowing what graduates go on to accomplish can be a powerful tool when deciding which schools are on your list. I'm Becca from Bucknell University, and in this episode of College Admissions Insider, we're diving into outcomes.

[0:00:27] BT: I'm Brooke, also from Bucknell. We'll discover how universities manage and share outcomes data, the best time to start thinking about careers, how parents and families can best support their students' post-graduate goals and more.

[0:00:39] BHA: Our guest is Pam Keiser, executive director of career services at Bucknell.

[0:00:43] PK: Hi, everybody.

[0:00:45] BT: A lot of colleges and universities have career centers, which is what you direct here at Bucknell. What does an office like the Center for Career Advancement provide students?

[0:00:53] PK: Sure. Great question. A Career Center provides all different services, and programs, and events that are relevant to students of all ages — from first year to senior, as well as alumni. We engage a lot of alumni and parents in our programs. But what students should be looking for is an organization that offers individual coaching or counseling, so that you can have one-to-one assistance on what your hopes, and dreams, and goals, and plans are. But then programs and events that connect you with employers, or alumni, and parents and will share information about careers and industries and grad schools — everything that you need to know as you think about your own future.

Then, also, making sure that there are opportunities to write the resume, write the cover letter, create the LinkedIn profile, have opportunities to network and understand the etiquette behind that, prepare for interviews, negotiate offers. That can happen on a walk-in basis. That can happen on a scheduled basis. But really, we're here for all students, no matter if they're just starting out, or they're working their way through, or maybe they're a senior and a couple weeks away from graduation and they haven't done very much yet, we're still there for them as well.

[0:02:04] BHA: Do alumni get to work with the Center as well? I'm just curious about them as an audience.

[0:02:08] PK: Sure, they do. They work with us in a couple of ways as a volunteer, or as a representative of their company, or their graduate school. But then, we also have alumni career services, which actually falls in the Center for Family Parent Engagement, Alumni Family and Parent Engagement. Julie Burch is a full-time counselor who will work one-on-one with alumni who might be making decisions, or looking for a change, or maybe they didn't expect it, but suddenly, they are looking for something.

[0:02:36] BT: Yeah. Well, that's neat. In addition to supporting students' post-graduate goals, the CCA at Bucknell also tracks outcomes for each graduating class. How do you gather all of that information and then, what do you do with it?

[0:02:50] PK: Sure. It's a really important role that we play for the university as a whole. We'll start a Cap & Gown Commencement weekend — when students are getting their caps and gowns for the festive weekend — and we'll do an intensive survey with graduates asking them what their plans are, if they started looking at, if they've committed to anything, as well as past experiences. Did they complete internships, how did they find their jobs, all sorts of information.

Then we'll continue gathering that data for about eight months after graduation. Then we'll spend time analyzing the data. We'll also scan and scrape information on LinkedIn and try and find out from faculty and staff around campus who have worked with graduates who may not be responding to us. What can they tell us? We always try and verify that information. It's important that we verify it and not just take it as word one, but then we'll compile all that into a very comprehensive report that's available off of our website every year, and we have a snapshot brochure that we'll also highlight. But we'll dig deep into what each college outcomes are, as well as Bucknell as a whole, so that you can really get a sense of where do Bucknell grads go, how successful are they, what employers are hiring them, what graduate and professional schools are accepting them into full-time enrollment.

It's important for us, obviously, as a career center to know where our graduates are going for employer development purposes. But then, it's also important for prospective students and families to know, well, what does a Bucknell education offer and what are the chances of success for my specific type of career interest?

Then, it also plays into a lot of surveys and rankings that the university is a part of. US News and World Report, Forbe and Princeton Review, there's a number that are out there that we participate in each year. Then, accreditation processes that we have to go through as a university to make sure that each of our colleges and the university as a whole are meeting the needs and the standards that are put forth in higher education today. The information is used in lots of different ways.

[0:04:50] BHA: I know that when I'm on the road talking to high school students and families and school counselors, we are constantly referring to the post-graduate outcomes report. One of the things that's really useful about it as a tool is, of course, it's great in displaying Bucknell, but it's also a really great tool to help students envision career pathways at any institution, or any university, right? What type of job you do after receiving X degree. We certainly have school counselors at high schools across the country that use that as a tool, our grad outcomes report with students just based on how comprehensive it is and how clearly it conveys the data and the opportunities for our students.

Just know that in admissions, it's been a really helpful tool for us. I'd love for us to link it in the show notes, so that students listening and families listening might be able to grab that link and check it out for themselves.

[0:05:39] PK: That's great. The one thing I really love about our report, too, is prospective students and families can not only go into the depth of colleges, but then by major. If you're contemplating a chemical engineering major versus the chemistry major, or some other physical sciences major, you can actually look at lists of what did the graduates do in a particular year for all of those majors and get a sense of what's the percentage of grads that go on to grad school versus working, and where are they working? What graduate schools are they accepted into? It's really a treasure trove of information.

[0:06:14] BT: Yeah. Sounds like a lot of valuable information is in that report. Why is it important that prospective students find ways to use outcomes information from colleges and universities, even at the point where they're compiling their list?

[0:06:27] PK: Sure. Well, I guess, it goes back to the old phrase "return on investment." These days, a college education is quite an investment of not only money, but time and effort. You want to ensure that you're doing the most to set yourself up for success. If you do have a specific career path or plan in mind, and you know that your goal is to become XYZ, and certain majors apply to that area — I'll say, accounting or engineering, very specific degrees that are required — then it's really in your best interest to look at an outcomes report and dig as deep into it as you can to see what are the success rates? And for what I think I want to do, are the graduates doing something similar?

If they're not…Let's say med school. If you want to get into med school or law school, to dig deep and see, well, what are the grads at XYZ University? How successful are they getting into the top-tier law schools or med schools, versus the second tier or the third tier? That information can help you get a sense of, okay, I still need to commit. I need to own my time there. I need to do well as a student, obviously. In addition to that, does that university seem to set their graduates up for the best chance of success, if I'm doing all I can individually to ensure that I'm taking care of all the steps needed to get there? I would say, ROI would probably be the best reason. Think about it as an investment in your future.

[0:07:52] BHA: Plenty of students do have a career pathway in mind, as they're exploring colleges and universities. While others might take their time and meander a bit more as they decide what they would like to do. From your perspective, as an expert in this, is there an ideal time when students should start thinking about what they would like to do after graduation?

[0:08:10] PK: Sure. That's a great question. We try not to put too much pressure on the first-year students, because this is a big change. As you're coming to any college campus, you have to give time to allow yourself to acclimate, to make friends, to understand the expectations of your faculty and what it means to look at a syllabus and know that you're responsible to work your way through that. It might not be first semester of your first year as an undergrad. But shortly after that, and definitely, I see the sophomore year as the most important year. Because it gives you time to get comfortable at your school and become a part of the place, understand academic requirements, but then you can begin thinking about, "Are there jobs on campus that will help me get experience? Can I volunteer? Can I take on a leadership role?"

Most programs require you to decide a major by sophomore year, if not earlier. Some of these decisions will come and that's a great time to start working with us, either to confirm plans or to start thinking about, “Okay, I've got a big decision ahead. How do I get there?” Also, remember that if you decide on that first major and it doesn't quite pan out the way that you think it will, that's okay. So many students will change their major, or they'll add a second major, or they'll add a minor. That's why there's four years of an undergrad experience to give you time to do that.

I encourage students to think about their decisions, but not feel like they don't have the opportunity to change their minds, whether it's that they're not doing well in an academic area, or maybe they're excelling, but they just don't like the content that they're studying, the materials that they're studying. That's a reason to change as well. You want to enjoy your experience and take from it as much as possible, not hate every moment that you're studying something.

[0:09:57] BT: I'd love to talk a little bit more about that kind of student, the student who maybe thinks they want to do something at first and then changes their mind, or maybe is even pulled in a couple of different directions by their passions before that sophomore year deadline when they have to declare. What support can a career center offer that student?

[0:10:15] PK: Sure. A couple of different things. They can certainly participate in and be a part of large-scale programs that we're offering. They might attend a career fair, and maybe they'll talk to different employers and get a sense of what type of majors do you hire? What type of internships or jobs do you offer? Then that individual coaching or counseling that I talked about can really be helpful for that one-on-one experience, where a coach can start digging in and get a sense of what are your skills, your strengths, what don't you like to do? How do you like to spend your time? How don't you like to spend your time? What do you envision for your future, and how might you get there? That can all really help to determine what you might be most interested in studying, and also where you might be the most successful in studying.

We're not all made out to be math majors. We're not all made out to be English majors. We all have our unique skill set that we bring to the table, and expertise level of knowledge, and how we're able to continue to develop that and that's different for everyone. What's good for the person on your left or your right may not be what's best for you.

We also now offer courses at Bucknell that are available for college credit. We offer a jumpstart your career course that's actually a half-credit course that our coaches teach, and we work with about 20 students in each classroom. We work our way through self-reflection and self-understanding, so you can identify skills, strengths, interests, personality even plays into this, as well as start learning about the work world in different industries. Because colleges identify students by majors and colleges that you might be a part of, but the work world is industry-based. Lots of majors fit into lots of different industries. That's important for students to understand. Then we'll help them write a resume, learn how to interview, create a LinkedIn profile. We actually require students to interview an alum, or a parent — not their own parent, but another Bucknell parent — for an informational interview to take a risk and put themselves out there and talk to a stranger and then write a reflection on that. Then we'll also talk about graduate school.

It really gives them a toolbox, and we target the class to sophomores and to second-semester first-year students, so that they can take it early on. It's very structured. Students like that it's a course. They earn credit for it. But it also gives them a set of tools and a set of skills that they can then carry forward not only for the rest of their time at Bucknell, but also well into their work life. Then, they can revisit, “Oh, do I need to revamp my resume? Do I need to sharpen my interview skills? Do I need to network, etc.?"

The course has been a really great way for us to work with one-to-many students, versus the coaching is more the one-to-one approach. Any of that is available to all students, no matter what your major is, no matter what college you're a part of here at the university. We also have courses for credit specific to pre-law and pre-health tracks that our pre-law and pre-health advisors teach. They’re quarter credit rather than half credit, but same format with a focus on what do you need to know about this competitive path that you're thinking about and then how do you best prepare and be a competitive applicant for the schools that you're applying to? That's a really great piece, too.

[0:13:31] BHA: Let's dive into that student who does have a focused path and maybe it is a competitive and rigorous one with lots of school that lies ahead. Admissions, when we read applications, we talk about pointy students and round students. Round students being those multi-passionate, or interested in multiple disciplines, and those pointy students having a real focus throughout that application. You mentioned pre-law and pre-health. What types of resources should a student who is focused on one of those areas look for in a college or university?

[0:14:01] PK: Sure. Great question. For pre-law and pre-health you want to make sure that the universities that you're looking at, well, first of all as we talked about, where are the graduates going? What is the success rate for grads to get into particular schools? Any career center should be able to provide that to you. If they don't, that's a red flag, or at least a yellow one. But then, in addition to that, you would want students to get involved and develop their skills. Whether it's in the classroom that they're doing well academically, because GPA will matter, but then outside of the classroom — getting involved, volunteering, thinking about, how can I develop a skill set? For pre-law, for example, we have a very rigorous mock trial program. For pre-health, we have experiences set up at some of the local hospitals, where you can volunteer hours and gain some experience.

Then just in your social life to be thinking about what clubs and organizations are you a part of would look good on an application. That applies not only to pre-law and pre-health, but to lots of different careers and occupations. Employers and graduate schools tend to want very well-rounded individuals that are not just strong academically, but have the ability to socialize, and to mix and mingle, and take on leadership roles within a wide variety of settings. So thinking about becoming an RA, becoming a tour guide in the admissions office, being an intern in the career center, being a TA for one of your faculty members — all of those things add to a skill set that allows students to just begin building their expertise in lots of different areas. And that all amounts to being a competitive candidate, whether it's applying for an internship or job, or applying for graduate and professionals.

[0:15:46] BT: In relation to one of the courses that your office teaches, you mentioned informational interviewing. Can you talk more about that process? Who does it involve? What role do alumni play, and how is that helpful in a student building their network and their skills in advance of career and internship opportunities?

[0:16:07] PK: Sure, sure. Well, we call it "informational interviewing." That's when you're reaching out to an alum, or a parent, introducing yourself. You probably don't have a relationship with them. It is taking a risk, talking to someone that you don't know. We find that students, once they do it once, then they get more comfortable and then they'll quickly excel at it.

Bucknell students in general are very social in nature, very outgoing. But we all have a certain level of being extroverted or introverted. By practicing these skills and by talking with people, you benefit in strengthening your ability to have a good conversation, but then you're also learning lots. You can ask them, "What is it like to be an advertising associate, or civil engineer, or a doctor? What is your typical day like? What degree do you have? What advanced degrees were required? Were advanced degrees required right away? What are the trends and issues happening in your industry? How do I stay abreast of that? What periodicals, what websites, what news sources should I be looking at to make sure that I'm staying current?" These are all the types of questions that you can ask.

Then hopefully, if you build a rapport with that person and they take a liking to you and you take a liking to them, it might develop into more of a mentor relationship for you, if that makes sense. Or it's just someone that you can reach back to and let them know how you're doing, and additional questions might foster the opportunity for them to introduce you to other people that they think you should talk with, and that's how you expand your network.

Whether it's a formal class assignment, like an informational interviewing situation, or if it's just looking at LinkedIn and getting a sense of what Bucknellians are in what career paths. Or we also subscribe to a platform at Bucknell called Bucknell Connect, where we have our electronic alumni directory. Both are really great sources to find people who are located in either geographic regions you're interested in, or within industries and career paths that you're interested in that you can then think about building your network.

It's not going to happen overnight. It takes a while. But baby steps. If you talk with one or two people a semester, or you use it as a summer opportunity to learn and to meet people, if you don't find that dream internship that first summer after first year here. It's just something that the more you can take advantage of those conversations and meet people and ask good questions, the more versed you'll be and the better prepared you'll be.

Then also, we all know, it's who do you know, and who can be helpful to you not to get a job, or to get into grad school, but to help you make connections to open doors. So you can have those important conversations with the people who do make those decisions. The beauty of the Bucknell network is that we have a very powerful and a very engaged alumni community that are very willing to help. It's one of the things that I love most about the University. Our alumni are involved, engaged, they want to be helpful.

Students will need to do the work. No one's going to hand you an internship, or a job, or access to graduate school, so you need to have some ownership of it, as I said. But our alums and parents are so helpful, it's a real strength of Bucknell, and something to consider when students and families are looking at the University. Because it's a really wonderful community that, as you come in as a student, you very quickly become a part of with that alumni community.

[0:19:35] BT: It's sounding like career centers can serve as a really wonderful launching pad for a student's future. But it's not the only place that they might go to for advice, or guidance. How would you encourage parents and families to balance support versus influence in a student's career path?

[0:19:52] PK: Sure. That was a great question. Well, I think, as a parent myself, you always have an interest in what your student is doing. But sometimes it's really important to step back and listen and listen well, and maybe not jump to an opinion. You also want to make sure that your student owns their decisions and owns their actions, because they're the ones that have to put the work in. They are the ones that are here at the university earning the degree, taking a advantage of opportunities — or making the decision not to and then what does that mean?

For example, there are certain employers that will only visit campus once a year. They won't be here on a regular basis. There's a certain time of year that they'll consider students for internships or jobs. If a student misses that opportunity, it doesn't mean that they won't succeed, but they're making it harder for themselves. That's one example. But I would say, for the most part, encourage and support your student, but allow them to feel empowered to make their own decisions and to explore and figure it out.

Some paths are very linear. Students know from the time they're two, three, five that they want to do something. Then some paths are very curvy, and wavy, and unexpected. And maybe that first choice of major won't work out, and they'll have to go to a second major, sometimes even to a third major. Pretty rare there, but every now and then. As long as you're on the journey with them and not being too overpowering or too influential that they feel that they're not able to make their own decisions, you should all be able to find your way there. I would say, be a good listener, be a good supporter, but also empower your student to feel confident that they can make good decisions, they will make good decisions and they need to own their actions to get there.

[0:21:43] BT: You have shared so much insightful and useful information in this episode that I'm sure our audience is going to take with them and utilize as they use outcomes to create their lists. In terms of that, in terms of finding a school that's going to prepare a student for a successful career, any last tips?

[0:22:01] PK: Well, I would say, any student coming in, or wherever you are, we hope you're here at Bucknell. But whatever university you decide upon, take action, take risks, explore. Maybe take a course that isn't in your level of comfort. Reach out and get involved in an organization. Think about how you can build skill sets that are what we call transitional, that will go into many different types of industries: good writing skills; good communication skills; good organizational skills; the ability to lead a team; the ability to be a follower and an active contributor to a team; problem solving; all the tech skills that are out there these days, such as podcasting. That's a skill you can put on a resume. Think about how you can use your time the wisest, so that you can accrue depth and breadth of skill set and confidence that goes along with that skill set, to make sure that you're doing all you can to prepare yourself for the future.

Because the work world, as we all know, is changing rapidly. There are some jobs out there that we haven't even thought of yet that five years from now might be in high demand. You have to be prepared as a student these days to be adaptable to shift, and take advantage, and pivot. Maybe, you won't be in the same profession for your 30, 35, 40-year work career. But the more that you take advantage of your undergraduate education, and you prepare yourself in a broad sense that you can do lots of different things and contribute in lots of different ways. That will really pay off for you in the long run.

Think about relationships, think about that networking, think about getting to know your faculty well, staff across campus that are here to help you. For athletes, your coaches, there are so many people here that you can build relationships with, and those relationships will last for a lifetime. You might call upon them every now and then if something pops up that you're unexpecting, whether it's something to celebrate, or it's something that causes you to pause and say, “Maybe I need to move in a different direction here and who can help me with that?” Because it's definitely a lifelong commitment to be a Bucknellian. If you choose to pursue those sorts of relationships, you'll find that you'll call upon those people at different times in your life, and you'll also have a lot of fun with them along the way.

[0:24:17] BHA: Thank you so much, Pam, for joining us. This was an action-packed episode with tons of nuggets of wisdom. I am certain that our students and families listening each took something away and I know I learned something new, too.

[0:24:29] PK: Great. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

[0:24:32] BT: Thanks to everyone out there for listening. If you're a fan of the podcast, please take a moment to rate, subscribe and share this episode with the students and families in your life.

[0:24:39] BHA: We'll be back with another new episode in a few weeks. In the meantime, send your questions, comments and episode ideas to podcast@bucknell.edu. We read every note you send.

[0:24:49] BT: Finally, you're invited to follow Bucknell on your favorite social media apps. Just look for @BucknellU on Instagram, Facebook, X, YouTube and TikTok. You can also follow our student-run Instagram account which is @IAmRayBucknell.

[0:25:02] BHA: Until next time, keep reaching for your dreams and your dream school.

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