[0:00:07] BHA: Stacey, welcome to the podcast.

[0:00:08] SH: Hello, thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

[0:00:11] BHA: Before we jump in, can you tell listeners a little bit about who you are and the work that you do?

[0:00:15] SH: Absolutely, yeah. I am a school counselor in a really large public school district in the Western suburbs of Philadelphia. The district itself has about 13,000 students, but the school that I'm currently at is a much smaller IB World school, and we have just under 1,000 students. But I focus primarily on the postsecondary advising piece. I spend a lot of time also reading applications for scholarships and even colleges, and spent a lot of my professional development time with PACAC, which is a professional development organization in the higher-ed space in Pennsylvania.

[0:00:53] BT: And so working with high schoolers, when do you typically see them begin to think seriously about college, and what do those conversations look like at the start?

[0:01:01] SH: It definitely depends on the student, I would say. Some students have big plans the moment they walk in as an incoming ninth grader. But when I meet with freshmen and sophomores in general, I'm often trying to focus on the classes they like, the subjects that they've always been particularly interested in or maybe just really good at. Sometimes the conversation will even be more about what kinds of jobs do your parents or family members have and could you see yourself doing that? But like I said, there are some students who have a pretty solid sense of what they're interested in. And oftentimes, those conversations are more about what classes we offer in our school, which ones maybe are best preparing them for the next step in the goals that they might have.

But by junior year, that is a go, right? Full throttle. We need to be in this conversation regardless if the end goal is college, if it's a career, if it's the military. Junior year is when — even if a student might not be feeling ready — we will be looking at their strengths, the classes they've taken and done well in, the things they're interested in. Try to get them to start researching colleges and thinking about the logistics, really, of what the college application process will look like over the course of really the next 18 months.

[0:02:32] BHA: That's such a good reminder that every student is on their own timeline and on their own journey. But eventually, ready or not, those application deadlines are sneaking up, and students need to get on board with being a part of the conversation and a part of the process. We see that all the time. I'm picturing a college fair where we talk to a very prepared sophomore in high school and a not-so-prepared senior that's getting ready to apply. In your experience, is there a best time to start or a best way to start exploring college options?

[0:02:32] SH: Yeah, oftentimes, I'll encourage parents not to force the issue before a student is completely ready. It's a great idea to go on a college visit and just allow your student to see a college and the kinds of characteristics that different colleges have. But I've absolutely talked with students who maybe their parents, in a well-meaning way, had taken them on way too many visits early on and it just kind of gets lost. As parents, you become aware that your kids do tune you out sometimes. And if you're not following their lead at all, sometimes it can just be a missed opportunity. I really try to focus on having just regular conversations as a family about post-high school goals, and thoughts, and jobs. Having regular career discussions often plants the seeds that a year or two later will come up in conversations in unexpected ways, right?

But anytime a student is in high school…My high school is a magnet school where students actually have to apply to get in. And so those students in eighth grade are forced to have those conversations at home about what the long-term goals are and which high school is going to help them best meet those goals. I have kids that probably on the whole are coming to this process a little bit earlier just by nature of the high school application process. But as I said before, I feel like the 9th and 10th grade years are great times to sprinkle it in. But junior year is when the conversations really do have to be occurring, even if a student isn't maybe completely ready for them.

[0:04:58] BT: And whether a student is starting a bit earlier or really getting intensive in that junior year, there's going to come a point where they will build a college list of sorts. And there's a common way of categorizing schools, reach, target and safety. Can you give us a rundown of what each of those terms mean and how a student might use them?

[0:05:16] SH: Yeah, of course. When I sit down with my families, I often have a list and it almost looks like separate buckets, but I usually explain that these are really more of a continuum type categorization. But reach schools generally are going to be the ones where a student's credentials — typically we use SAT and GPA really as our starting point there — but if a student's credentials are going to be a little bit lower than the average incoming student at one of those schools, that would be referred to as a reach school.

We also advise our families to be looking at the national admit rates. And so when you see a national admit rate of 20% or less, that is a school that's saying "No" way more than it's saying "Yes," right? And so we refer to schools in that category as being a reach for everyone. You can come in with perfect credentials, still get a no from a school with a low admit rate, right?

Target schools would be where your credentials are a perfect fit, right? You're coming in with the grades and maybe standardized test scores that are right on par with the average incoming student.

And then likely schools are the ones where your credentials might be on the higher end. And not only is that wonderful from an admissions perspective, because ultimately, at the end of the day, pretty much every parent and student in this process is terrified that what if I don't get in anywhere, right?  From that perspective, a self-confidence perspective, it's wonderful to have likely schools. But from a cost of attendance perspective, oftentimes, those likely schools are where you see the most merit money, and that can be a huge, huge factor in terms of where a student will ultimately attend.

[0:07:02] BHA: When you sit down with a student, and you're using this framework of a likely school, a target school, a reach school, you mentioned some of the information that a student might draw from to place their schools into these categories or buckets like you called them. What tools could a student use or what data points should a student point toward to help them make those delineations?

[0:07:24] SH: That's probably going to be easier for some students, especially if they attend a school that has purchased a software program that makes that information pretty readily accessible. Many schools will have tools like Naviance, or Scoir, Cialfo. Those are just some of the names of these software programs. But they typically will not only give students national admit rate data, which is super helpful, but more helpful is the alumni outcomes. And oftentimes, they show up or in the form of something called a scattergram, where you can see where you as a student are placed in context to the other students from your school who have applied.

I would certainly say to any student who's looking for this information, the first step is to talk to your school or your college counselor to see what tools are readily available to you. But in the absence of your school having some sort of program, there are lots and lots of ways that you can find this information online. There are some really great college counseling websites that offer completely free information about admit rates. They're going to all be national, of course. To get your school-based data, that is going to have to come from someone in your school. And those are really the best sources of information. There's lots and lots of tools out there. Simply Googling a school name and their admit rate will minimally give you a starting point to just determine is this one of those schools that's a reach for all kind of thing?

[0:09:02] BT: That's a great array of different strategies a student can use to gather information. And we know there's no right or wrong way to compile a college list. But what's the benefit of organizing your list by reach, target and likely? Or even using some of these programs that you mentioned — Score, Naviance, et cetera. Especially for ambitious students who might have their sights set on prestigious institutions?

[0:09:23] SH: My mantra is balance, balance, balance. And it is really helpful to think of balance in terms of this reach, target, safety. But I also think of balance in terms of geographic diversity. If a student is applying to schools that are all a plane ride away, I want them to make sure they have a school on the list that, if they need to stay home for whatever reason or closer to home, they have those options.

I think balance is super important in terms of cost. You can absolutely apply to some of the most expensive schools in the country, but it'd be nice to at least have some options that cost far less. And so oftentimes, I'll sit down and look at a student and their potential list and we will create separate balance lists depending on the criteria. And then oftentimes, when it comes down to students making their decision, their final decision about where to attend, we'll reference those lists and prioritize the criteria in terms of what is the most important factor to you right now. And if it is selectivity, if it is geographic region and proximity to home, or cost, they already have where a school falls ready to go. And that can be really helpful to have criteria in a concrete way.

And it gets some of that emotion out of the ultimate decision process. Certainly, college admissions and where you attend is an emotional process, but you want to be grounded in a little bit of data so that you're not making an overly emotional decision at the end of the day.

[0:11:05] BHA: That's such a great point, Stacey. I often talk about the right fit for a student being a place where the facts — what you're describing — and the feelings can come together and ultimately check some of those boxes. You're right, across the different categories, priorities, buckets.

From the onset of this conversation, I really appreciate that you talked about families and when you work with families in the process, because even though the student is the one applying, oftentimes, where a student ends up enrolling is a family decision. Let's include parents in this conversation. How do you, as a counselor, include them in your process? Do you have any tips on how they can support their student in building a college list?

[0:11:45] SH: Absolutely. I have found over the years…I've done this a long enough time that I've made some missteps early in my career. I would only speak with students, and then they'd come back after they checked in at home and family was coming from a completely different perspective, and we started at step one again. It didn't take me long, but I've realized that the more that I can engage with the families throughout this entire process, the better off everyone is.

We start that in my school with sort of like a soft, gentle launch into college admissions with freshman and sophomore evening programming. It's really light. We want to get the conversations started and just the thoughts in the back of our students' and families' minds. But it's gentle, it's kind of lighthearted. It's thinking about, again, the things that students are good at, the kinds of courses we have to help nurture those talents. But it is never ever about the hard and cold facts of where am I going to go to college or what kind of career I will have as a ninth or tenth grader.

Junior year is when we do the most, of course. We do have multiple evening programs related to different aspects of the college admissions process. The most important thing that I feel like we do with our families is having individual junior meetings where the student and their parents — if they're able to attend — sit in the same room. We go over all of the same resources and timelines, and we talk about the students' plans, and we're all having an open conversation about where things are and where we need to go moving forward.

I find these conversations to be the most impactful to a student feeling supported, and to parents feeling like they're not inadvertently missing deadlines, or timeframes, or any of the important things that — especially as a first-time parent — you are terrified of. First-time parents typically haven't seen a college application, if ever, but for 20-plus years usually. And so when you're dealing with so many well-intentioned emotions, the more support that I in my role can offer, the better everyone feels with the decisions that are ultimately made.

But certainly, as a parent, just trying to find time at home where you're regularly checking in. I think Sunday nights are a great time because, oftentimes, families are packing lunches and getting ready for the week on Sunday nights. And so that's a great time if you have it to be able to just regularly check in and say like, "Hey, where are you at with your thoughts about the class that you're taking or the types of colleges that might be on your list?" That is definitely more of a junior year into senior year thing.

As a freshman or sophomore parent, just anytime the opportunity to talk about a school, talk about a major, talk about a job, just being intentional in having those conversations. Sometimes the best conversations happen in the car when you're doing the car pools and drop-offs to sports and practices. Just finding that time to just make it a regular part of the dialogue at home.

[0:15:09] BT: Yeah, hearing about some of the things that you do at your school with families I think is a great reminder for our listeners to take advantage of any programming that's happening at their students' school. Or even leveraging individuals like yourself, counselors who are very invested in helping students get to their dream schools. And something else that you've mentioned a couple of times throughout this episode is that cost — the financial factor — which we know is really important from the family perspective.

Financial aid and merit are not only a deciding factor when it comes to enrolling, but should really be considered at the list stage as well, like you mentioned. And we know that depending on the school, scholarships and aid can be competitive. What are the things that you're discussing with students and families when it comes to that?

[0:15:48] SH: Oftentimes, I start with talking about the difference between need and merit-based money. Because the way those two things are calculated are completely separate often and totally different. The other rule of thumb that I like to just gently remind parents is that some of the reach schools that might be on their students' radar are typically amazing with need, but not so great with merit. And because they are often some of the most expensive schools in the country, really knowing what your likelihood to get money can really inform expectations from the get-go.

The last thing anyone wants to see is a student who has their heart set on a school and the family knows that it's not probably going to be financially feasible, but doesn't want to stop the momentum that the child has. And then you get to May of senior year and the student is, for the first time, realizing that this is probably not a school I can attend based on cost. That can be heartbreaking. The more that these financial conversations are happening throughout the process, the better.

I always remind families that the closer a school is to a safety range, that is where merit money tends to be the most abundant. And so sometimes families can get really enamored with a school's selectivity and feel like that is ultimately going to lead to a better outcome. I will often remind them that coming in as a student with stellar academics might actually provide more opportunities at that school in their likely/safety type range because they're really going to shine in that setting.

A similar approach is when families are considering public schools. Many of the public colleges in the country have unbelievable honors programs, which do include typically a small scholarship stipend, but tons of other honors perks. Oftentimes, they're living in honors dorms, which are typically pretty nice. They have access to an honors advisor, typically get to choose their classes before the rest of the student body to ensure that they're getting classes they need before maybe an internship or co-op experience just to ensure they can graduate in four years.

There's lots of different ways that families can look at financial factors, not necessarily in a limiting way, but more in a way to maximize that return on investment and how to best support their students who sometimes have graduate school already in the plans. You don't need four years of debt if you foresee many, many more years of college tuition on the horizon as well.

[0:18:41] BHA: What we've gleaned from this episode is that a student's college list should be both aspirational and achievable, which really does take careful consideration on the part of the student, and their family, and counselors like yourself. Are there any last words of encouragement that you'd like to leave our listeners with before they move on in the process?

[0:19:01] SH: I just want everyone to remember that, truly, college is a match to be made. It is not a prize to be won. Finding an individual's perfect school definitely should go beyond the selectivity of a school and be much, much more aligned with the institutional characteristics that are going to ultimately help your student meet their goals so that they can thrive and have all of the opportunities that we as parents and educators want to ensure that they have access to.

I also want people to remember to use your resources. So often, there are things that students have access to and, perhaps, they don't know it's available to them. But more often, they just don't know how to utilize or access those resources. And so this is a great time in a young person's life to utilize those emerging self-advocacy skills because the people that want to help aren't mind readers. They don't always know exactly where your areas of need are. Just making sure that you are asking questions of the people, your teachers, your counselors, the college reps that you might see at a college fair or on a visit. Use your resources.

And lastly, the vast majority of colleges in the country really do accept the vast majority of applicants. And so it is really easy to go down the wormhole of thinking in terms of selectivity and admit rate. But if you have a balanced list in mind, you will absolutely have wonderful options to choose from at the end of this process. You just don't want to put all of your eggs into that reach basket without having some targets and safeties to counterbalance that.

[0:20:49] BT: Yeah, because the college process has so many things to consider, you're right, it can be easy to get lost in the sauce there. But I love that reminder that the college process is really about making that match with the student of the school that they are going to thrive at. Thanks for coming to share your expertise and encouragement.

[0:21:05] SH: Thank you so much. I had a great time. And love talking college admissions.

[0:21:08] BHA: And thanks to everyone out there listening. If you're a fan of the podcast, please take a moment to rate, subscribe and share this episode with the students and families in your life.

[0:21:17] BT: We'll be back with another episode in a few weeks. In the meantime, send your questions, comments, and episode ideas to podcast@bucknell.edu. We read every note you send.

[0:21:26] BHA: And finally, you're invited to follow Bucknell on your favorite social media apps. Just look for @bucknellu on Instagram, Facebook, X, YouTube and TikTok. You can also follow our student-run Instagram account, which is @imraybucknell.

[0:21:41] BT: Until next time, keep on reaching for your dreams and your dream school.

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