[EPISODE]

[0:00:07] BT: Submitting your application is the ultimate way you'll tell a college you want in. But that's just the end of the story. In the years before you apply, many admissions offices will be on the lookout for something called demonstrated interest.

[0:00:20] BHA: Demonstrated interest is all about showing a college that you're excited about the possibility of enrolling there, before you even submit your application. I'm Becca Haupt Aldredge from Bucknell University. And on this episode of College Admissions Insider, we're breaking down what demonstrated interest means and the many ways students can show it.

[0:00:40] BT: I'm Brooke Thames, also from Bucknell. We'll talk about why demonstrated interest has become increasingly important in recent years, what counts as meaningful engagement, and what students should and shouldn't do as they try to stand out.

[0:00:53] BHA: Our guest is Kevin Mathes, who oversees admissions here at Bucknell. Welcome to the podcast.

[0:00:58] KM: Thanks, Becca and Brooke. It's really nice to be back. I think it's been a minute since I've been on the podcast, so I'm thrilled to be with you today.

[0:01:06] BHA: Kevin, your role has changed since you were last on the podcast. Can you fill our listeners in on what you're currently doing with admissions and enrollment management here at Bucknell?

[0:02:05] KM: Sure, Brooke. Demonstrated interest at its base is actually exactly what it sounds like. You're demonstrating interest in a college or university that you're thinking about attending in the future. When we think about how it works in the college admission process, it really depends on the institution. I think that's one of my main messages today as we talk about demonstrated interest, is that every college or university can have their own policy around it. You'll find institutions that say they really look at how much a student has expressed interest in their institutions when they're making admission decisions. You'll hear some that say, “We don't look at it at all.” And then you get the run of the gamut in between those two extremes of the policy.

[0:02:46] BHA: When a college tracks a student's demonstrated interest, what does that actually look like on the admission side?

[0:02:53] KM: When I think about our system where we keep student records, and keep track of who's expressed interest in Bucknell and might become an applicant, and then eventually does become an applicant, our system will show how a student has essentially engaged with us over the course of their college search process. We can see if a student has potentially visited campus, we can see if they have visited one of our admissions team members when they've traveled outside of Lewisburg, Pa., somewhere. It can be things like, has a student opened an email that we've sent and maybe clicked on a link to an article that we think that they might find interesting? There's lots of different ways that it shows up on our side, so that we know a student has essentially raised their hand, or maybe taken an additional step beyond raising their hand, to show that Bucknell is a place that they're thinking about.

[0:03:43] BT: We've discussed demonstrated interest before in Episode 26 of the podcast, but it seems like, since then, demonstrated interest has become even more important when evaluating applicants for admission, at least at schools like Bucknell. Can you tell us what's driving that increased weight placed on student interactions?

[0:03:59] BHA: Sure. One of the things that we're finding now is as the years go by….I've been in the profession for over 15 years at this point, so I've seen a lot happen in the last decade and a half in this world of enrollment and college admissions. I can tell you, one of the things that statistically we've seen is that students are applying to more colleges, right? When I started in this profession, students applied to maybe, nationally on average, four to five institutions — and that has slowly crept up over the years. I think when you're looking at schools like Bucknell that are selective, or schools that are even more selective than us, you see that number jump even further. Because students are saying, "If this school only has a 10% admit rate, this one has 20%, this one's 30%, 40%, 50%," they're getting counseling and good counseling to say, "You need to build a robust list." Because the more selective you go, the less likely it is, right? It's a bit of a game of chance at some of those places. If students start to grow their list to cover the run of what they're looking for in an institution and to make sure that they're going to have options at the end, you're starting to hear about students who are applying to 10 schools, 15 schools. I know the applications that we use limit students to 20, and you hear students doing that.

I think for institutions that have talked more openly about demonstrated interest and as we at Bucknell talk about demonstrated interest, some of it is helping us understand who are true applicants of the institution? And who are students who are maybe sending an application that there is some interest there, but it's not as serious as other students? I think that's something that schools are really grappling with as they think about, "How do we enroll a class of students? How do we make sure that we have a robust student body?" We don't want to admit a bunch of students and then have 200 open seats. We want to make sure that we're filling the goals that we have as a college or university.

[0:05:53] BHA: You gave some great examples of how universities are tracking and measuring demonstrated interest and what different touch points count for demonstrated interest. What do you say are some of the best ways a student could demonstrate interest to a college or university?

[0:06:09] KM: Well, selfishly, I think the best way for a place like Bucknell is to apply Early Decision. We have our Early Decision I, Early Decision II and Regular Decision application rounds. For listeners that may not be as familiar with the application rounds that we have, those that are Early Decision schools like Bucknell, we are asking students to make a commitment to sign a piece of paper — as well as their parent regarding and their school counselor — basically committing to say, “If you admit me, I'm going to enroll. And I won't apply to more schools, and the schools that I maybe have submitted applications to, I'll withdraw them.” It's really that one for one scenario. I think that's a way that anybody can do it. You don't have to visit campus ahead of time. You don't have to necessarily meet us on the road. It's a way for students who have done a lot of research and really want Bucknell to say, "This is the place I want to be," and that really does have a high value for us.

I think outside of that, to your point, Becca, it is some of the things I've mentioned. For some students that are able to visit a college campus, being there in person is a really good way to do that. As admission officers hit the road and visit high schools, or hold sessions out for the public, that can be a great way. We also know students are busy, right? You have tests. You have things that you can't miss if we're at your school. Sometimes, we might visit when it's not ideal for you and you can't make the visit. Or maybe the night that we're holding something in your community is the night that you have a sporting event, or a debate tournament, and you can't make that either.

The other ways we think about it are things like interaction with the communication that we send. Are you exploring our website? Are you reaching out to an admissions office? It's not just maybe communicating with an admission officer who oversees your area, but sometimes, it's, "Can you put me in touch with a current student, or maybe an alumnus, or an alumna of the institution so that I can have some connection with people who are living the experience, or lived it — where I can find out more about my interest and how I might see myself at your institution?"

There's all those ways that we can see that students are trying to learn about our schools, or learn about Bucknell in particular, and then we can keep track of that and see that students have taken those actions.

[0:08:12] BT: It definitely sounds like, for those who can't participate in person on a college campus, or maybe have scheduling issues that prevent them from engaging with a college counselor, there are those different options — exploring the website, clicking on an email, maybe even a virtual visit of some kind. Are those touch points just as valuable from the admissions perspective as an in-person campus tour, for example?

[0:08:36] BHA: At Bucknell, we've found they are. I think that when we look at the bigger picture…and we don't always have that bigger picture until the application comes in. And when we start to understand the context of the student and their family and the resources that they have, or don't have, you start to understand that those virtual opportunities are the engagement opportunities for those students. Participating in a virtual event, for example…we're in September right now, we're going to be launching some fall opportunities for students. We offer things like overviews of our three different colleges. I run a session on Inside the Application Review. There might be something that really sparks that interest in a student to say, “This is a great virtual opportunity for me to learn from someone at Bucknell."

"I can talk about it in my application on the supplement,” because our supplement asks, "What college are you applying to and why do you want to do it at Bucknell?" These are great ways that students can engage with us in a way that helps them in the end, too, as they think about submitting an application. We do love offering some virtual opportunities. We know it opens up access to students from around the globe, because we know that not everybody's going to be able to make it here to Lewisburg, or like we talked about in their home communities, or we're not visiting their home communities. Because as much as my team loves to travel, we can't make it to every state in the United States, or every country around the globe that we get applications from.

[0:09:51] BHA: I think our goal with this episode is to arm listeners with information, so they can use that information to make good choices about how they engage with schools throughout their search. I'm curious how you would respond to the critique that demonstrated interests could favor students who have the resources — whether that's money, or time, or transportation — to do some of that type of engagement that you're mentioning? Or even the concern that demonstrated interest in admissions is less about the student and more about an admission’s office attempt to secure their class?

[0:10:25] KM: Sure, Becca. I'm going to start with that last part about institutional interest versus student interest. I will be fully transparent and say, I think it serves both. Because as you heard me talk about, in earlier questions, how we're looking at it and how different institutions let it play into their decision-making process…I think on the one hand, sure, as Bucknell thinks about how has a student engaged with us over their college search process, we are taking that into account to some extent. That is a bit self-serving. We're looking to fill our class. I think my corollary to that is that when we're upfront and honest about wanting to see the demonstrated interest, we are giving families information of, what do you need to do to be successful in the admission process, or as successful as you can be.

I also think there's an interesting byproduct, which is, in a way, students are then engaged more at the institution, and I think sometimes, find things out about us that they wouldn't find on first pass. If we're asking you to be more thoughtful about how you engage with us, maybe you're going to go a level deeper in your research, and you're going to learn about a research program that we have that maybe doesn't always make the top line of what we talk about, because it's a niche program that only certain students will want. Or maybe it's one of our centers on campus that we talk about, but when a student says, “Hey, I know you mentioned your data science center,” they then find programs that are run by that department or that center that really resonate with them.

I think, again, it gives them that chance to learn more and then leverage that information in the application to, again, help them elevate themselves in our pool to say, “Hey, this is a student who has done their homework. We know why we're on their college list. We know why they're in our applicant pool and we can see them really thriving here.”

[0:12:13] BT: That makes a lot of sense. I love the fact that you've mentioned thoughtful engagement there. I imagine there are students who might want to really maximize demonstrated interest in order to boost the number of acceptance letters they receive, which makes total sense to me. But how would you advise students to approach this admissions factor in a way that aids them, but isn't overzealous?

[0:12:35] KM: That's a really good question, Brooke, because I think sometimes when students hear demonstrated interest, they think quantity over quality. When I talk to students about this, and when I've heard colleagues from other institutions talk about this…By no means do you want a student to say, “I need to email my admission officer who oversees my high school and the recruitment process there every week.” We’re not asking for the, “Hey, I just want to let you know, this is what I ate for breakfast, and this is what I'm doing today, and I hope you have a good week.” What we're looking for is that thoughtful, meaningful engagement, where you've done some homework and you're asking yourself a question around, “Hey, I found this out about Bucknell. I'm not sure if there's more here. I feel like I need to go more in depth.” You take the steps to show who you're contacting that you've tried and you're looking for a little bit more and maybe they can put you in touch with someone or provide greater context.

I also think that we realize that different questions come out through the cycle, right? If you are potentially a sophomore, or junior listening to the podcast right now and you're not at the point of applying, you might have different questions about navigating this process than a senior who is about to submit applications or are in the midst of writing essays or supplements. I do think it's about being thoughtful around the research, but also, where you are in the process and how we can be of assistance, or what opportunities are we providing that do assist you in the process.

[0:13:58] BHA: So far, decisions about demonstrated interest have been in the hands of the student. Where, if anywhere, do families fit into the equation?

[0:14:06] KM: For me personally, I think families involved in the process are a really great support system for students as they think about the college admission process. When I think about family engagement, it's really about helping your student understand when you're researching schools, asking the question, reminding them that this is a good question to ask at all institutions that you're thinking about. Then help keep track of where does it make more sense to spend your time, right? I mentioned earlier, some schools don't take demonstrated interest into account at all. I'm not saying you shouldn't do research at those schools, or make sure they're a good fit for you and your college experience.

But I also think if time is a limited resource, which it is for all of us, you also need to be mindful of how much time you're spending. If you're creating a list of schools and you're saying, "How am I going to demonstrate interest in all of these," knowing the policy is really helpful. I think families can assist with that. I do think that families can also be helpful in helping to navigate some of this.

For example, one of the things I think about a lot are campus visits. I know that it can take work to schedule campus visits to us and a lot of other institutions out there. A family maybe taking the lead to help get that started is great. I think the point I always make is for the purpose of thinking about demonstrated interest: When you're on the campus, let the student take the lead, right? It helps them take ownership of the process. Again, as a way of demonstrating their interest in the school, rather than a parent or guardian walking in the door and saying, “Hi, this is so and so who's here for the visit.” I think there are ways that families can assist and support, without becoming the point of contact. I think that's the key piece is that we still want the student to be the point of contact as much as possible.

[0:15:48] BT: You've done such a great job of exploring the landscape of all of the benefits of demonstrated interest for the student in this process, as well as the things to keep in mind when engaging with the school. If you have one final takeaway for listeners, what would that be?

[0:16:03] KM: Ooh, that's a tough one. I feel like I've given a couple of different good nuggets. If I'm boiling it down to one thing, I think, Brooke, it's the last couple questions we talked about, which is the thoughtful engagement around demonstrated interest. Because I think what I've been seeing — and I don't want to speak for all of my colleagues across the country — but in conversations, I feel like we're falling into a bit of a moment where I think students are thinking more quantity over quality. I think all of us are trying to help students understand that it really isn't about the number of times you engage with us. It's about engaging in thoughtful, meaningful ways that express to us that you're really thinking about us seriously, but it does have that benefit to the student as well as they learn a lot more about the institution and feel really confident about their college choice.

[0:16:59] BHA: Thank you so much, Kevin, for your transparency and insights about the process. Here at the College Admissions Insider, our goal is to demystify the process as much as possible and episodes like this with guests like yourself help us to do that.

[0:17:11] KM: Well, again, I'm thrilled to be back. Becca and Brooke, thanks so much for having us. I look forward to our next one in the future.

[0:17:18] BT: Thanks everyone out there for listening. If you're a fan of the podcast, please take a moment to rate, subscribe, and share this episode with the students and families in your life.

[0:17:27] BHA: We'll be back with another new episode in a few weeks. In the meantime, you can send your podcast ideas, questions and comments to podcast@bucknell.edu. We read every note you send.

[0:17:38] BT: Finally, you're invited to follow Bucknell on your favorite social media apps. Just look for @BucknellU on Instagram, Facebook, X, YouTube, and TikTok. You can also follow our student-run Instagram account, which is @iamraybucknell.

[0:17:52] BHA: Until next time, keep reaching for your dreams and your dream school.

[END]